PF7 - Layering problem - Antialias?

[haegri]

I'll try to explain this as briefly as possible!

I've just been making up a simple image consisting of several overlapping objects. I tried out several free apps with layering but I'm not a graphics person and I found them difficult to learn. But I was already familiar with Photofiltre ver 6.5.1 (I use it for editing the backgrounds of flight simulator panels!) So, instead of layers, I made up several transparent (.gif) pseudo-layers, by painting the objects onto separate white backgrounds, making them transparent, and then superimposing them on the background by copy and paste. This meant that I could edit the 'layers' independently before pasting together a final image, and worked well.

Then I found PF 7 and downloaded the portable version to try, thinking that the layers would be even more useful. However, when I loaded one of my old transparent objects (a sheet of paper at about 3 degrees to the vertical) as a layer and pasted it onto the background, it had jagged edges where with the old version the edges were smooth. I tried making up a new transparent layer and saving and reloading the .png file - but still ragged edges (and the transparency operation didn't work so well either, even with the same original using the same tolerance settings.)

I guess it might be something to do with antialiasing, but this seems to be switched on in all the menus.

I'm reluctant to upgrade my old and reliable version 6.5.1. until I can get as good results from version 7.

Thanks for any suggestions,

John.

(BTW - je ne peux pas parler français, mais je peux lire.)

[Tom]

Hi haegri,

before all manipulations we have to remember the right way to observe and compare some images :
Each image to be compared wille be displaid in real size in the same application, that is in zoom 100% .

Comparisons can be possible (but not so true) in other zoom size but with the same for each image.
In the menu View, in this case, try to check Antialias.

To compare transparent results in gif format with Alpha transparency in the layers of PF7, you must remember too
that gif file format is saved in 256 colors, with 2 levels of transparency, and with Alpha transparency you work in 256 levels and 16 million colors.
The edges of the gif images are evidently more simple, ie more sharpen.

A way between others to smooth the edges in PF7 : use the Eraser tool with a low pressure level,
or another :

• right clic in the layer thumb and "Edit Alpha channel"
• blur the mask you've got, and do Copy
• right clic in the layer thumb, then do "Paste as Alpha channel"

In the Studio (shareware) release, some layers tools can directly adjust the edges refinement,
and the eraser tool can match to apply transparency but also to invert it directly
(in the same quality you could modify the alpha channel in the mask with a black, white or gray paintbrush)

But if you could give a link to the example of the background and the originals gifs you want to overlapp in PF7,
perhaps could we find an other simple way to proceed.

[haegri]

Right, thanks. I'll go through these points:

Hi haegri,

before all manipulations we have to remember the right way to observe and compare some images :
Each image to be compared wille be displaid in real size in the same application, that is in zoom 100% .

Comparisons can be possible (but not so true) in other zoom size but with the same for each image.
In the menu View, in this case, try to check Antialias.

In this case I'm importing the files directly into both version 6 and 7 directly from disk, and they look exactly the same on screen in each version. The .gif file looks fine when it's imported into 7 as a new file. It's when I import it as a layer, or copy and paste it onto the background (which automatically creates a layer) that the problem occurs. It's as if the layers are in a much lower resolution than the original - but the background is the same file I used in 6, and the image size is the same in both apps (2500*1500 pixels - ish). Antialias is checked.

To compare transparent results in gif format with Alpha transparency in the layers of PF7, you must remember too
that gif file format is saved in 256 colors, with 2 levels of transparency, and with Alpha transparency you work in 256 levels and 16 million colors.
The edges of the gif images are evidently more simple, ie more sharpen.

The gif I'm using is imported directly from disk and works fine, without sawtooth edges, when pasted onto another image in version 6, as is. Also, it looks fine if I import it into 7 as a separate file. I've also tried creating a png file in 7, with exactly the same results. Both files are converted from a scanned bitmap of over 7 meg.

A way between others to smooth the edges in PF7 : use the Eraser tool with a low pressure level,
or another :

• right clic in the layer thumb and "Edit Alpha channel"
• blur the mask you've got, and do Copy
• right clic in the layer thumb, then do "Paste as Alpha channel"

In the Studio (shareware) release, some layers tools can directly adjust the edges refinement,
and the eraser tool can match to apply transparency but also to invert it directly
(in the same quality you could modify the alpha channel in the mask with a black, white or gray paintbrush)

Ah - right - editing the Alpha channel seems to work - or, at least, to have an effect in the right direction - I'll experiment with it when I have more time.

I wonder why nothing like this seems to be necessary in 6 - it seems to paste in as is. Another thing I've noticed is that in 7, when I tried to transform the original by rotating it through 3 degrees it left black artefacts at the edge - again, this didn't happen in 6.

Anyway, thanks for the minute - I'll carry on experimenting. But if I have to doctor each layer I import, even when it looks fine in the original file, again it seems that 6 is still easier, as there I can work on individual files and when I import and paste them they still look good!

BTW - I've also noticed that if I try to draw a line at an angle on a layer, it appears as a broken line consisting of a lot of small horizontal ones with spaces between. Again, it doesn't look like this in 6.

John.

[Tom]

I've understood all that you told me, but i don't observe in PF7 or Studio (same core) the difference you describe compared with PF6,
At this point of dicussion only original gif images could exactly illustrate the situation and allow to understand precisely what result you get and especially why.

Don't worry, if PF6 would give best results as Studio, i'm not masochist, i think i wouldn't spend several hours by day with the Studio version.

[haegri]

Hi, and thanks again for the help - and for the offer to look at my files. I've created a series of simple ones to show what I mean - they illustrate the whole process I'm going through, with each stage of the files, and with comments on the web page. Here they are:

https://sites.google.com/site/fileferrer/pfeg

Merci beaucoup,

John.

[Tom]

Fine ! the images and the legend/description are well talking.

Yes you are right, ... and wrong.
- the method of transparency by the color in PF7 creates scaled edges. I think it's probably a bug.
- but the same method by the color in PF6 gives the same result : clic on the full screen icon and see the view (displaid with antialias)

A better and so simply way for PF7 is to select white color with the magic wand (menu Selection/Antialiasing/Antialias checked)
and right clic in the selection / Clear. Then you can see that Antialiasing is performed.

[haegri]

Hi again. I'm still not getting any coconuts!

If I use the magic wand to clear the background colour, I don't get transparency. The background colour is replaced by the background colour that's set in the palette, above the toolkit.

If I then use image->automatic transparency->inside selection to make the background transparent, and then paste it onto the black background image as a layer, I still get the same ragged edges, although they look smooth in the png. Same thing if I select the grey rectangle with the magic wand and use ->outside selection instead.

However, it's still true that PF6 can paste transparent gif files onto a background without ragged edges although the gifs are produced by the transparent colour method, whereas I still can't get PF7 to do this, however I try to produce the gifs or pngs. Is it possible that the pasting operation in PF6 uses a different process from the layer merging operation in PF7?

Since nobody else seems to have this problem, I must be doing something really silly!

John.

[Tom]

Yes ! I see

If I use the magic wand to clear the background colour, I don't get transparency. The background colour is replaced by the background colour that's set in the palette, above the toolkit.

All right if you are working on a background layer and if you didn't change the image mode as RGBA (Alpha channel).
But with PF7 you have a new advanced tool which can work with layers : paste the image with rotated rectangle above the black background,
select white colour with the magic wand and then you can see the Clear function sets correctly transparency with antialiasing.
(or Crop layer if you select the inner color of the rectangle)

A background layer does not work exactly like an other layer, and the available functions are different.
But on a layer you are praticaly sure it works in RGBA (with Alpha channel) so when you want export a layer in the Layer menu,
the default file format suggested is png, intended to keep transparency by the Alpha channel in the file.

Automatic transparency is an Image function (not working on a layer), and works correctly if the image is in Alpha channel mode.
Yes the copy/paste process is different between PF 6 and 7.

[Antonio]

If you want to convert a GIF to a PNG 32 with Alpha channel and with antialiased edges, here is another solution :

1. Open your GIF or PNG with transparency

2. Duplicate the image (menu Image > Duplicate)

3. Convert your second image to a mask (menu Image > Transparency mask)
==> Choose the Antialias mode

4. Convert the mask to RGB (menu Image > Mode > RGB)

5. Invert the mask (menu Adjust > Negative)

4. Copy the mask (menu Edit > Copy)

5. Convert the colored image to RGBA (menu Image > Mode > RGBA)

6. Past as Alpha Channel (menu Layer > Transparency > Past as Alpha channel)


Now you can save the result as PNG 32 for exemple. This methode needs more action but you can choose the antialis mode when creating the mask

[Antonio]

Just for info, with PhotoFiltre Studio X it is more simple :

- Open a GIF
- Convert the image to RGBA (menu Image > Mode > RGBA)
- Antialias edges (menu Layer > Border effect > Antialias)

[haegri]

Hi again. Thanks Antonio, but I have the same problem if I create a png from scratch in PF7, so converting a gif to a png presumably won't solve it - unless I'm creating the png's wrong as well!

Tom, I've tried your suggestions (as far as I understand them) i.e:

Open a new black background
Open a new white file
Draw beige filled rectange on white file
Rotate white file through 3%
Copy and paste white file as layer over black file
Select white background with magic tool
Clear
Merge with black layer

All this with both files set to RGBA mode. The result still looks as if it has jagged edges, but when saved as a jpg the edges appear smooth if viewed in Irfanview. However, earlier attempts - presumably I missed out some steps - still have jagged edges. Unlike PF 6 - where what you saw was usually what you got - it seems that the results and appearance within the program can be quite different. It seems to me that there's a long road of trial and error ahead!

Since, as I say, I can paste images without jagged edges reliably in PF6 without any hitches, I'll stick with that for the time being until I have time to play with PF7 some more. PF6 is adequate for my limited purposes so I've no complaints - it's still a great program - but I'm disappointed that 7 turns out to be so complicated, when I hoped it would be just like PF6 with layers! Particularly as the interface and way of handling layers is so much easier to use than any other program I've looked at.

Merci beacoup encore!

John.

[Tom]

.../...
Open a new black background
Open a new white file
Draw beige filled rectange on white file
Rotate white file through 3%
Copy and paste white file as layer over black file
Select white background with magic tool
Clear
Merge with black layer
.../...

In PF6 you can verify that you do exactly the same number of items. :

Open a new black background
Open a new white file
Draw beige filled rectange on white file
Rotate white file through 3%
Select white background with magic tool
Automatic Transparency or Invert selection
Copy and paste beige file over black file
Validate paste

With a great advantage in PF7 : you can displace or modify the layer so long time you haven't merge your work, and can save it as pfi file, as it is.

In PF7 you don't need to draw a white file, you directly draw the beige file as a layer upon the black background, and you can rotate the layer through 3°
But if you proceed like you describe it, no need to see the file in Irfanview to verify that the edges are clear :
display in PF7 at 100% zoom (real size) or Full screen (black background ; automatic anti aliasing display but realistic )

In PF6 you can't work so easily with progressive transparency as it's possible with the Alpha channel.

There are three main differences in PF7 :
- a background isn't a layer and their menus and functions are often specific.
- The Alpha channel offers new and more tools, but it seems sometimes more difficult as it's really.
- the way as you turn your mind : if you accept to change some little points of views, you will work very easily and quickly.

[haegri]

Right - thanks again. I'll get on to it again when I have time.

Cheers,

John.